Joint Venture Success in Brisbane Development Market
In this episode of Property Investory, we’re joined by Matt Jones, a successful property developer in Brisbane market specialising in joint ventures and, otherwise known as JVs. Learn about how he managed his joint ventures while overseas, the four key components necessary for Jvs, and how he went from a postman to where he is today. Also, we will be discussing examples of individuals who attended his event for those who want to get into joint ventures and the great success they achieved and the things that are important when it comes to Jvs, such as leveraging income and having the right people involved, with each individual able to bring something unique to the table.
We will be delving into how you can find people to create Jvs with, what is needed for joint ventures to be successful, the eventualities you need to cover if you want your joint venture to succeed. Find out about how you can get involved in joint ventures even if you are inexperienced and just have some cash, how to make connections at joint venture events hosted by Matt Jones and starring various other property professionals, what percentage of people who go to these events end up forming joint ventures and getting deals, and much, much more! So what are you waiting for? Click the play button, and let’s get started.“And we talk about that a lot, but I think the key component to getting these right is choosing the right people and that needs to be based on firstly what the deal needs.”
First off, Jones tells us a bit about what it’s been like so far living for an extended period in France and how he managed his joint ventures while so far away from Australia.
We had a few years over there as I sort of a, I don’t know, early retirement, extended holiday, whatever you want to call it, to have an experience with the family, which was amazing. That’s become a second home for us over there. So we hope to eventually get back there again. But yeah, we’re back now. The kids are getting older, so they’re in school. So it’s sort of settled in a little bit here on the sunshine coast the last year or so. And getting our feet back on the ground, which has been cool. And just continued on from, I mean the way we got to France was by exploring joint ventures.
So I had to restructure everything I did with this property because I couldn’t be on-site obviously when I was overseas. So we kind of spun everything in a 180 direction, we became money partners with colleagues that we’d met over the years, particularly through our property networking group in Brisbane. And so that allowed us to go and travel and live in France and have a passive income coming from those relationships that we built up. And then we came back and that was working really well. So we just kept doing it. So we didn’t really get into projects for ourselves straight away. We just continued investing with other people. And then I started teaching others how to do it once we got back because I just found it to be the missing link for anyone really that’s missing a component or the four key components that I talk about a lot that people might be missing and joint venturing kind of plugs those gaps.
And it was really all about just taking away the fear that people have around JVs and just bring back the knowledge so that people can sort of take that leap of faith into that strategy. And so yeah, I’ve been doing a lot of that and got back into the property group meetings that we started 12, 13 years ago now rhRwere sort of running while I was away, I’d sort of tap in via Skype regularly with those meetings. And then I came back and it was good to really reconnect and get back into what I love and just being around people, building communities, working in property investing obviously, having chatted to people like you and just getting the whole momentum rolling again.
Jones brings us back to where it all started, how working in the property world started to feel like a regular job, which led to a decision to travel somewhere new.
It all started when we had kids: we’ve got an older son and another son and a younger daughter and they started growing up, right. So I was out there doing deals, doing subdivisions, renos on-site, and now I just found like it was turning into a job and that was what I was trying to get away from, you know, when I was a postie, the nine-to-five grind, the property was about creating passive income. And I was finding I was just working harder. So yeah, we decided to just take off, go to France and experience another culture, learn the language, but the kids in school and just do something really different. So the way we did it, I mean, we sold everything before we left, cars and put everything in storage and just literally packed our lives up and got on the plane and went and live there.
So we were there for about two years living in a small town called Aselerado, which is right in the centre of France. And just small township there, little community of about 3000 people and we just became the crazy Aussies in this little French town. Trying to live that French culture, which we did. We’ve made some amazing friends there and I guess the way we did that was not doing active deals here. So before I was specializing in subdivision, so I’d be out there finding the deals, talking to agents, managing the projects and that sort of thing, which is what I love to do. But over there obviously you can’t sort of have that connection with the agents and being on-site, I just find it’s too difficult to continue that rapport.
For Jones, the time difference worked to his advantage. He also tells us how he managed to fund his life overseas with his family.
That’s what really worked actually, the timezone, because you’re over there and I’d get up at sort of, I’d turn on the computer at say, nine o’clock, and it was five o’clock and nine o’clock in the morning, which is 5:00 PM here. So most of the problems that had arisen been solved by then, and it was usually just tapping in and making sure everything was running okay. But what I was able to do is build on the relationships I’d already had with people doing deals and actually help fund those deals. So it might be through serviceability or providing cash that provides a set return for that money. And then we could actually live off that passive income. We had a buffer that we took with us, so we thought, well if this doesn’t work out, let’s just put some money aside so that we can have this experience together.
But in the end, we came back with that buffer and more really so it wasn’t required, which is great. And it just came down to having those trusted relationships with people, where if they needed funding in some way, we were able to provide and that should have sort of set up a stream of income or money trade if you want to call it like that. Just something that sustained us to have the life wanted over there. And I’m not talking about an extravagant holiday with Ferrari’s and yachts and things like that. We were just living a normal life in France, which was quite inexpensive. And so we were able to live that life and bring the funds into France from Australia. So I just make a transfer each month and we live off that and it allowed us to go and explore other parts of Europe while we’re there.
But really it was just about having a normal life in a different country where we could learn that language, learn that culture, and give the kids that experience and really see it through their eyes and just be normal. So we weren’t rushing around looking at Eiffel Towers and we did little trips in the school holidays, but the rest of the time we just sort of get up, have a normal life, go to the bakery and have a baguette and meet up with friends and it was just an easy sort of cruisy sort of lifestyle.
It took quite a while for Jones and his family to plan this trip to France and once they got there, he enjoyed the lifestyle but still managed to get work done.
I think we took about a year to plan it because I really had to restructure everything I did, so once we bought those tickets and committed and that was a big part of it, and actually making the decision that it was going to happen and, and buying the tickets and locking in the dates, everything I did meant that, how do I do this in France, running the property group meetings and we’ve got our online business, where we have a whole community there that we work with. How was I going to run that over from there? And so I really had to systemize everything, bring in some extra people to help me do that. But once we decided to do it, that all really just fell into place. It wasn’t difficult.
It just meant a different way of thinking. But knowing that it was happening, it just kind of forced you to change how you look at life and what was important, what wasn’t important and leveraging off other people, bringing those in but you needed rather than just grinding away at the day-to-day and doing it yourself and growing it, we just kind of just flipped it on its head. And that really helped us to sort of get on the plane and go and with the technology that we have now, I could still stay in touch. It was just in a very different way. And at times, like I said before, really shook things up a bit so that you had to be sort of cramming your day into one hour in the morning. And then once that was done, it was so freeing because I knew that everyone finished work and had gone to bed.
But yet I had the whole day to explore the region that we’re in, which is what we did. So I would just do a little bit of tapping in in the morning. I got to be creative over there as well, got into blogging and I wrote another resource, my JV DIY kit, because you know, I like to do stuff, I didn’t want to just sit there drinking cocktails on a beach. I liked to be active and having fun and connecting still. So I continued to keep that up. But yeah, you really had that limitless approach where there was no timeframe to come back. Like we decided to go for a year, which turned into two years and it could have easily turned into five years. So there was no sort of, “Oh, we gotta be back by this day.
There was no pressure for him to get things done in time to leave and at first, the lack of technology in the town of France they lived in was something they struggled with.
We’ve got to get this done before we leave.” It was all just in the flow, in the pace that they were in, which was very different to Australia, a lot slower pace. They kind of have, I see it as 30 years behind in technology in the way they do things, which was frustrating in the beginning. Because they still use chequebooks over there to buy their groceries, that sort of stuff. You sign up online and you’re opting into a newsletter or something. You’d do that in France and you wouldn’t get a reply but you get a letter in the mail saying you’ve successfully joined this newsletter. It was just like a really slow sort of technology but after six months we were like because we’re frustrated in the beginning because we couldn’t get stuff done quick enough.
And then after that, we go, “Oh, hang on a minute, these guys have actually got it right. You know, that stuff isn’t really that important.” They’re more about the finer things. Conversations and good food and everything happens in its own timeframe. You’re working with the seasons more while you’re there and it’s just a whole other ballgame. Actually, when we came back it was like hitting the ground running really fast because we’re just so much quicker over here and doing things, which is great cause it’s efficient and we’re entrepreneurial and everything, but they are, it’s like, no, no, no, no. Just slow it down. Now let’s, let’s have a three-hour lunch and get a bottle of wine and talk about what’s going on in the world and put our smartphones away. And yeah, it was just a real eye-opener, which was a real positive experience for us.
As a result, Jones has realised first-hand the rejuvenating effects of being disconnected from technology.
You’ve just got to take back the control. I mean we tried to take some of those components back with us to Australia, what we’d learnt there and try and find that happy medium because we did miss the pace a little bit and I like being around people that are doing stuff and getting excited about things. So it was just bringing that balance back. But you do have to get off the grid, I think. Oh, we just came back from Heron Island. Went a week over there, just got back last night and there’s no WiFi there. So we’re on this magical Island with marine life and birdlife and just time together. And I noticed the first day I was there, I was really like, I was reaching for my phone and that addiction was still there and it took a day to actually release that and then not pick up the phone, not look for the phone, not switch on the laptop, because there was no WiFi anyway, so I couldn’t do anything. And that’s what we wanted. We just wanted to switch off and not be on the grid for a little while and it just totally refreshes you, I’m back now and I feel great, I feel like I’m typing faster when I open the laptop because you just had that rejuvenation. It’s just so important.
Jones informs us of the four key components necessary for joint ventures and takes us back to the start, to when he was working as a postman and getting interested in Jvs.
It’s really working out what you can bring to the table first and then you know what you’re missing. So I talk about the four key components, the ability to find profitable deal, the cash in the bank so you’re not put down a deposit or pay for your reno or subdivision, the serviceability, so the ability to borrow money from the bank and then the skill to manage that project to a profitable outcome and that has a time component as well. So it’s kind of working out. What do you have at those four things? Usually, it’s just one or two and most people have one or two of those things, but you’ve got to have all four so you go out and find the other two or three or whatever it is, components that are plugging what you’re missing. So if you’re missing cash, it’s not about like how you got to wait five years to save up a hundred grand to do a deal.
It’s about finding others that have that where you can pay the return and take them on the journey with you so that you can get into deals. And I was lucky enough to be forced into it early when I was a post so I was earning 30 grand a year. No banks would look at me. I didn’t really have a lot of savings at that time. This is back in 2006, 2007. And so it was either find a way to fund these deals or stay at work and being a postie, it was really hard work, you know, like being a postie, he’s out there listening to, I take my hat off here because it’s rain, hail or shine, you’re delivering mail, dealing with dogs biting your legs, it’s a hard job.
I thought it was going to be fun yet, which it was for the first week and then it got really hard. I was forced into finding a way to fund these deals because I was learning how to find them and put the strategies together. So I had to get someone in to make it work. And I built a network of people around me already and had friends and colleagues that had funds or had good jobs, they didn’t know how to leverage off. So together we could do deals that neither of us could have done individually, but together we could and then we’d share the profits or there are so many ways of splitting it up and making it work depending on what the deal requires. But essentially it’s just bringing those components together across two people, maybe three people, to then go forward and do a deal together.
He goes on to share with us a case study of individuals who attended his joint venture event and how successful they were at putting together a JV afterwards, by applying what they had learnt.
There’s quite a few of them because we run an event for the last few years since I got back. And those that come along that just are sort of blown away with…one of the things I hear them say is, “Oh, well I’ve been doing it all wrong”. Which they haven’t been doing it all wrong, they’re just on this journey and they’re having this realisation of how they can do it from here. So a couple of people I’ve interviewed lately, Henry Ledingham and Mick Martyn. So they were at different events, the same event but at different times. And so we had like a forum that mixed the 10 days together afterwards. So they hooked up in there and Henry had done a one in six subdivision deal, which he funded himself and he was wanting to leave his job altogether and do this full-time because he built up the skills and the knowledge to actually do these deals.
But he’d done one, he was in the middle of one and he didn’t have the funding to go and do the next one, but he had deals coming to him, so it was kind of like a waste to see that skill to bring in the deal but then having to let it go because he can’t find it, which I see as the most frustrating thing. Because I actually think the money part’s the easy part. There’s so much lazy equity out there and people would have great jobs that can service loans but they just don’t know how to sort of piece it all together. So Henry had another one into six projects. He met Mick Martyn. They went through my process of how to assess the person because I think that’s a key component to getting JVs right is having the right personalities, the right risk profile, the understanding of the roles and responsibilities of each person, the worst-case scenarios.
With this case study, Mick and Henry worked together playing different roles in their partnership to make their joint venture successful.
Even right through to managing a dispute resolution if there is any so that it’s all very clear upfront on how this is going to work. So effectively Mick funded the project while Henry managed himself and then they had a profit share across that project. So it was going one into six, split it all up, sell the lots and then share the profit. So between the two of them, they were able to do something together that separately they probably couldn’t have done because Mick had a full-time job already that he likes and he can leverage off and he wants to get away from his job but he has always dealt around him. They were a great match. They went through the process of understanding that their personalities and their strengths and weaknesses and that turned out to be a really good fit.
And then they’re going on to do more deals from there. So it’s not just a one-off. Once you get this right, you can keep replicating it. It’s not reinventing the wheel. It’s really just finding, I mean, we have probably half a dozen people around us that can fund projects. And if you work well together, you just keep repeating the process. And that way it’s unlimited. That’s why I say the cash part, that’s the easy part. Once someone has a deal and we understand what’s required, it’s just about plugging the gaps to make it come to a profitable outcome.
When it comes to joint ventures, leveraging your income if you have one is a wise and necessary thing to do.
Just double-timing, I mean, if you’re in a job like one colleague of mine, he works in the mines, so he’s seven days on, seven days off works really hard, doesn’t have the time or the continuity to go and find deals. But he’s out there, got a plan, a five-year plan to be out of that mining industry and leveraging off the properties that he’s investing in now. So he’s kind of really utilizing that high income but small amount of time available to then have a plan to get out altogether. And that’s what he wants. Or others want to keep their jobs, some people love their jobs and want to stay in there and keep doing, which is awesome, but why not leverage it while you’re there so that you can have that financial freedom or that choice later on when you want to do something different.
Jones informs us of the importance of having the right people involved in a joint venture, with the right skill sets and resources which each individual can bring to the table.
Well, the first thing was they had a commonality between in doing the event that I ran. So they had been through the core structure and they knew which steps to take and I’ll touch on some of those steps. Because I mean the JV side of it, you know, putting the documentation together and having it ratified by a solicitor and all that sort of stuff. That’s really important. And we talk about that a lot, but I think the key component to getting these right is choosing the right people and that needs to be based on firstly what the deal needs. Because I see people kind of hooking up together because they’re friends and they’re just in the game together and they’re getting along and they feel like I should just do a deal together, but if they haven’t got complimentary resources, so if they’ve both got good serviceability and good cash in the bank, but they don’t have the ability or the networks to find the deals, then it’s not gonna work, you know?
So it’s got to always start with a deal stacking up. So someone’s got to bring that to the table and there’s a lot of great deals floating around at the moment. It’s just sort of being around others that are doing it. And that’s what this boot camp is about. We kind of bring the deals and the money together in the same room. So I make sure that there’s a good mix of that. So there’s people that have projects on the go at the moment, or they’re coming online, they’re in the pipeline, and then there are others with cash and serviceability that want to potentially invest in one of those projects. So we use that as a case study throughout the weekend. But it’s also an opportunity for people to go and invest in those projects if they wanted. But the process is going through firstly where to find joint ventures.
He then tells us ways to find people, with whom we can create joint ventures with, sometimes even in our everyday lives.
So if you’re not at that event, how do I find people? So people that are in your work, your work colleagues, potentially family and friends, although I always say be careful there because you don’t want to be losing any relationships around this. There are your consultants, your accountants and solicitors sometimes because they’re seeing what you’re doing, they want to be a part of it and they’ve usually got good incomes but no time. Networking groups like the one we run in Brisbane, mentorships, those sorts of things where you get around people that are keen to move forward with that sort of thing. And then understanding their personality is really important. So we do a bit of work without actually…we bring Jill McIntyre who you know quite well Tyrone, who’s coached me for many, many years.
Jones tells us what is needed for joint ventures to be successful.
I’ll actually bring her in to make sure she runs that part of the session, because she is the guru at that sort of thing. And we have a bit of fun with that too. People get to do a personality profile and we understand strengths and weaknesses and how people sort of connect and communicate. And so by doing that we see who’s in the room, what sort of risk profile they have. How do they deal with stressful situations, have methodical they and sort of pigeonholing people a little bit so that we know where they come from from a personality point of view because you need to be able to communicate to people differently. And the key to making a JV work is having that communication. When you get a curveball thrown at you with a deal,
and that happens at every deal, you want to be able to sit down and talk about, okay, what do we do here? How do we solve this? What are we talking about in the beginning? So that we can bring that plan into action rather than have to go down a situation where there is no communication or people don’t understand what is expected of them. And from there, blame comes in resentment, and eventually dispute. And so we want to avoid all of that. We put things in place just in case it does happen. But the way to avoid it is for it to not happen at all. So you just put things in place in the start, like the personality profiling, like my screen method making sure that people are clear on how this person reacts in different sorts of situations and how they communicate.
He then tells us how it’s a matter of covering possible eventualities so that the parties involved in a joint venture are prepared.
And then it’s about bringing those complimentary resources together. So, okay, you’ve got cash, I’ve got a deal. Will this work? Let’s nut out the roles and responsibilities that we would see each other doing. Let’s nut out the profit share arrangement. Let’s talk about worst-case scenarios. Things like, what happens if you get hit by a bus tomorrow, God forbid? What happens if there’s a divorce that happens here? What if we have a GFC again, all these “what ifs”, putting them on the table. Well, it’s really easy to talk about and getting clear on what you would do in those scenarios. So if they do come to the fore, you can go back to this discussion you’ve had and go, okay, we said this could happen and this is what we decided to do. Let’s revisit that now. Rather than, Oh my God, yeah, this has happened and now we’ve got to deal with not only the stress of the deal going pear-shaped but the emotions around whatever’s happened in the circumstance that’s affecting the deal.
So you get all that on the table early, getting clear on what that is. And then from there, it’s really about documenting it properly. Setting up the security for the money that’s involved, if that’s the scenario that’s happening. And then just getting clear on whatever I need to do throughout the process, which may be nothing for a money partner. They just put their money in and they’re secured by the deal and they sit there and wait till the deal’s done. So everyone’s got their different roles and it’s just having them set up in the beginning. And then having good people around you, as the deal happens, the right good accountants, your finance broker, your solicitor, your mentor if there needs to be one. Yeah, just having a good team around you is just critical to making all this sort of come together.
Finding the perfect joint venture partners doesn’t have to happen in a very short period of time.
We’ve got three days together in the perfect environment to do that. But it’s not about forcing anything. I’m making stuff happen. It might take people 3, 6, 12 months. It depends on how much effort they want to put into it. So we create the environment for it to happen. And I do that by handpicking people that are in the room. So I know who’s there, who’s got cash, who’s got serviceability, who’s got deals to ensure that we have the best opportunity to make that happen. But if it doesn’t we have a forum that we keep running so that I can keep people accountable. And maybe there are people that aren’t quite ready to do something, they’re waiting for an inheritance or something to come in six months, but in that time, they’re building those relationships and accessing those deals so that when they have that cash ready to go, they’ve already got potential deals and partners lined up ready and waiting.
So, yeah, it doesn’t have to happen right there and then, but you walk away with the knowledge to be able to do it anytime you want when you’re ready. You know, obviously it’s better when it happens at the event or soon after because it’s fresh and you’ve got those really good relationships in place. But there’s no pressure to make that happen because it does need to gel. But really the last four times we’ve done it, the room has been just phenomenal. The bonds that are made because we’ve spent three days together, breakfast, lunch and dinner pretty much. And everyone’s great friends at the end and people have come from all over the country and there hasn’t been an event yet where people haven’t sort of created some really strong bonds, both as in friendships but also in property deals and joint ventures and so forth.
Jones lets us know what percentage of people who go to his event end up forming joint ventures and getting deals.
There’s probably about 30 to 50% that just go out and do it straight away. Excellent. That actually get their deals funded on the spot, because we have like an I call it like a shark tank presentation, where four or five people actually get up across the weekend and present their projects. And we use that as an educational session as well where we can critique those people because I show everyone how to pitch your deal to a potential money partner, whether it’s in a group environment or one-on-one and what templates you use. So they can learn how to do that. But then someone actually gets up and does it. So we actually get to see it in action and it’s a real case study, a real deal where they need funding for it.
So we get to see that, critique it. And then there’s people that actually go ahead and be a part of that deal straight after that weekend. Which is awesome to see. That’s an ultimate outcome because people would just move forward straight away with it. And then there are others, probably the other 50%, usually just not ready as far as finance goes where they need to restructure something or that they’re missing someone on their team, like an accountant or mortgage broker, a solicitor, and they’re just kind of putting the building blocks in place that they’ve learned over the weekend to then go forward with it. So I don’t know the exact numbers from that last 50% on those, because they’re still sort of happening still out there. They’re still coming to the networking groups. They’re still on the forum.
He tells us about an individual who has been particularly successful.
So it’s kind of ongoing. It’s something that I see as a life skill, where it’s not just about reading a book and then you have that knowledge and you do nothing with it. You take it with you because it’s been an experience that you’ve had and you take it forward and you build on it yourself. We’ve even had people coming back a second time around to tap into that network again, even though they’ve got the knowledge, although it’s great to have the knowledge impressed upon you again, they’re coming back for the network, the people that are in that room to work on. I had a call from another guy, he’s gone on and found, I think he’s up to his third JV deal now since this was a year ago.
So in a year he’s put together three JV deals where he’s finding the deals and getting other people to fund them, and he wants to come back to the next one cause he realizes the leverage that he had from the people in that room to effectively fund those projects. So at the time, he had no deals. And then he went out and found some deals in that period and now he’s got three on the go and he’s looking to do more. So yeah, it’s like anything, you get out what you put into it, part-time effort, part-time results. Not that that’s a bad thing. It’s just understanding the expectations of, okay, how much effort do you put into it? That’s pretty much what the return you’re going to get.
What’s good about joint ventures, as Jones goes on to tell us, is that even if you are inexperienced and just have cash, you can still get involved.
It’s a good way to get started too. Like if you haven’t done any deals before, you can ride on the coattails of somebody else and be a part of the deal but have not no control. Where the other person’s running it, you might be funding it or bringing something to the table, but you still, because your in the deal, it’s happening for you. Whereas if you haven’t done a subdivision before or it’s a little bit out of your reach or maybe you just don’t have the time, you can be going through it with somebody else, enjoying the experience, learning to eventually do on yourself, potentially down the track, but also profiting as well and making some money along the way as well as being educated.
Jones tells us about how we can attend his joint venture events.
It’s not something you can just go and buy a ticket for. So it’s a very small group that we run. And it’s very limited. So I only bring along 30 people in the room because any more than that, it’s hard to get that rapport across the three days. So I find in the past we’ve done sort of 20 to 24, pushed it up to 30 for this time around just to fit a few more people in there but still make it manageable. So to get in you’ve got to actually book a call with me so that I can see what strengths and weaknesses to see if you’re a good fit for the events and the events a good fit for you. And if I think it is a good fit and you’re keen to come along, then I’ll offer an invitation to do that.
But we just need to have that conversation first to make sure it’s just going to fit, because I’ve got kind of got to get the right mix of people so there are deals and money in the room. Otherwise, it’s a little bit pointless if everyone was in there just with heaps of cash and we’d all talk about JVs and go through the education, that’d be all fun. But there’d be not a real clear outcome from that. And what I wanted is for people to actually do deals together. So that’s why I just have the phone call. I mean you just book a call with me. I’ll do us people to put down $100 to book the call because that’s sort of just filters out some people because I really don’t have the time to be on the phone eight hours a day for the next two weeks.
So I like to sort of just filter that a little bit. So you just put down a hundred bucks book the call to my booking system. We get on the phones, probably a 20-minute chat, half an hour chat and I’ll sort of see where you’re at, what your journey is, what you want to achieve with it. If you’re a good fit then great, we can make it happen and I’ll give you all the details to the events and dates and what to bring and all that sort of stuff. If not, hopefully, I can help you in some other way during the call and add some value there. And we part as friends.
He tells us what his joint venture events involve and how connections are made during them.
I bring that whole journey with me. The people that have been on it, the JV partners that I’ve worked with, they’re there presenting as well. So it’s not just me. I actually bring some really good experts along to sort of give you the whole picture and how it works. And it’s quite fascinating. Even I get a lot out of it, just some of the presentations that happen there. But I guess it’s really about what happens in between those presentations, the lunch that we have and breakfast and we have some social gatherings throughout the event and it’s those moments where we can really connect and find synergies between the 10 days in the room.
This episode was produced by Annie Gao with narrations and interviews conducted by Tyrone Shum.