Hosted By Tyrone Shum

Never Too Late To Start Investing in Australia Property Market

Updated 01/10/2018

Serving as an expatriate for a quarter-century of his life, Philippe knew he wanted to utilise his passion for numbers in a different domain. Diving headfirst into the property investment scene, he worked tirelessly to establish his start-up business and secure his title as CEO of Multifocus Properties and Finance

Join us in this episode of Property Investory where Philippe shares both his best and worst moments in investing in Australia's property market and how he is humbly taking on the role of mentorship for his clients who are as wide-eyed as he once was at the start of his property investment journey.

'My life is driven by numbers and once the numbers make sense I just go for it.'

Philippe Brach

Brach was able to turn a hobby into a career, creating his company called Multifocus Properties and Finance within the property investment field.

I'm the CEO of the company and we essentially help property investors to make money out of the property by advising them on strategy, financial structure and sourcing properties.

A typical day in the life of Brach as CEO involves following up on clients to ensure their satisfaction with their services and most importantly checking that with new clients there is complete transparency when it comes to understanding why certain decisions were made.

What I do all day is pretty much follow up on my clients, making sure that everybody's happy and for new clients organise meetings to make sure that we can talk about what makes sense for them. And that usually goes through understanding their financial situation and then seeing how what the boundaries of the discussions are which is pretty much linked to boarding capacity and how much they've got for either equity or savings in terms of the deposit and then from then on which start discussing attitude to risk how it works then organise a financial structure and eventually find them a property. So there's a whole process to go through so I meet people several times and get to the end.

Wow. It sounds like a pretty full-on the process then, there's so much that you do as well besides managing a company you're still quite hands-on and meeting with their clients.

I'm the face of the company so I've got the credibility out there in terms of you know knowing what I'm talking about and that is really helpful. I also wrote a book about property investing in Australia.

That door drives if you want to the educational part of it and forcing it to be hands-on because a lot of people want to talk to me about what is in the book.

Excellent. So it sounds like you've got a full package for an investor that comes in and help them from start to finish really.

That's the idea because most of my clients are busy executives and the last thing they want is to spend too much time or they haven't got enough time to actually do all the work themselves in terms of research etc. but also in terms of knowledge. There's so much knowledge out there, there's so much on the internet and on social media about what properties are about, what's good what's bad etc. People get completely confused. So they're looking at understanding, getting a bit of clarity of vision and have someone who can actually explain to them from start to finish how it's going to work and how you get in.

How much does it cost to keep the property and at the end how do you make money out of them?

Having been in involved in property investment for more than a decade, Brach has had the privilege of seeing a few different cycles of the property market giving him a foot forward in terms of deciphering what situation could be the make or break of successful property investment.  

As you know in every market there's not one market in Australia. In terms of the property there's, there are several markets so you know when Sydney is booming other markets tend to be a bit more subdued and vice versa. When Sydney quiets down or the markets are picking up because there's a fundamental demand for real estate transactions and people and investors move around and look for bargains. Wherever the cycle is good so it's been it for the last 12 years just going around and riding every market as they come along.

Brach recalls a helpful trick he’s learnt from this experience.  

I think the trick is actually to make sure that you've got a long term prospect of generating capital growth because capital growth is the name of the game. So, you'll understand the cycles out there and you know you want to ride the wave but when you're at the top of the wave you don't want to settle because you want to make sure that you're going to have a levelling of that market and then eventually pick up again. So it's a question of marking timing and just having faith in what you've done.

Brach experienced living in all parts of the world before giving up the stability of his career in the hotel industry and deciding to pursue investment in Australia property market.

You can guess from my accent that I am French. I was raised in Strasbourg which is on the east part of France.

Born and bred there until I was 18 and my dad told me that if you want to be anyone in this world you need to speak English. So I packed my bags and went over to London. Never looked back. So I actually have never ever worked in France in my life. I did all my studies and then went abroad and found a job and got into finance and really loved it and then worked for an international hotel group, French of course the Accor group.

I loved every minute I worked for this company. They were in a sort of pioneering phase so they pretty much said oh we need to develop some hotels in the UK. Do you want to go? So I went and after about six or seven years they said okay now we have nice and established there. We're looking at developing Asia. Would you like to go to Bangkok? So we did a few years in Bangkok and then eventually they bought a company here in Australia. So we moved to the corporate office to Sydney and then we did another few years in Tokyo and then decided it was time to settle down and this is where I started looking around because once we finished in Tokyo we came back to Sydney and I was still working for the same company. They were actually quite good because they said to me when I was in Tokyo they said oh you want to settle down just tell us where you want to settle down we will organise the visitors. And so I was very very fortunate.

Having had all this worldly experience under his belt, his wife and himself had to decide out of all the places they had lived where they wanted to settle.

So I made a big song and dance with my wife, with a glass of wine and a globe of the world and I said okay where do you want to go, darling? But in effect, it took us two to three minutes to decide we wanted to go back to Australia because we loved it and so we eventually did another 10 years here in Australia with that same company. And this is when once we decided to settle down we said okay let's have a dog and let's have a look at where we can invest our money and this is when I came across that notion of negative gearing and I sort of looked at the numbers and being in corporate finance and in my life, my life is driven by numbers. So I said okay let's try to understand how this thing works. So I did and I said that can’t be right? So I went to one of the accountants who was working for me and said (you know I remember his name Michael Feeney), I said Michael, you know, where did I go wrong with my calculation that doesn't make sense? And he looked at the numbers and said no no you are correct. And I said well that's really a very powerful tool to create wealth. You know we're using a bit of taxation deferment etc . And then when I understood how it worked. I had no hesitation I just went out and bought seven properties in six months and then started to build on that.

He explains this impulsivity as him greeting his mid-life crisis with open arms.

At some point, you say I really love to work for myself and at that time I was helping all my colleagues to get into property and because they said oh you've invested in a property we'd like to do the same. We don't know how to do it so I sort of helped them along etc. etc. and then when I had my midlife crisis and I decided I was going to work for myself I thought so well that there has to be a niche because you've got all these big executives that haven't got time but really should invest in property because they're high-income earners. And you know it's a great way to create a bit of wealth there.

And so I just lead into that business in a sense I was one of those rare people who was actually making a profession out of my hobby. So to me coming to the office every morning it doesn't feel at all like have to go to work, there is a spring in my step every morning when I wake up which is great.

Brach’s parents were never hugely interested in property investment however recognised the fundamental abilities needed to ensure one’s success.

The biggest piece of advice that has defined my life was when dad said you know you need to learn English otherwise you will never go anywhere in this world. And that's what prompted me to actually pack my bags and just drive off to London. 

As Brach puts it, buying 7 properties in 6 months was the irrationality of a man going through a mid-life crisis.

In hindsight, I would have probably taken a bit more time to complete the thing but at the time I had the bank approvals and they had the capital to do it so I was just like a kid you know going shopping. And then it was my first real contact with property and then you get courted by all these people who want to sell you properties so you feel like a king. But I did my numbers although I was flattered that people wanted to talk to me.

I knew why they wanted to talk to me and also my life has been driven by numbers so I always rationalised back to that. And at the time my sort of research my understanding of property was that if you wanted to build a substantial portfolio you have to be careful of land taxes, land taxes are driven by states. So I wanted to start building up a number of portfolios in the states where the land tax was the lowest possible in the country and the threshold above which you start paying taxes was the most generous and that was Queensland. So I started seeing the first four properties were on the Gold Coast. Then one in Townsville and one in Brisbane and one in Cairns. And then after that, I started diversifying into other states but initially, that was my first foray into investment was really into Queensland.

Having invested in a number of properties over this extended period of time, Brach recalls a moment where his decisions did not lead to the outcomes he had hoped for.  

I mean I never had any major dramas but when I first invested I sort of bought a little bit of everything you know an apartment here a house there and I wanted to test to see what works what didn't work. It was a bit of silly reasoning in fact but I just wanted to prove that you could do it yourself, that you could make proper money out of the property, being a house, an apartment, a retirement home or whatever. And one of the investments I made which fortunately was a very small one was into a retirement unit.

I think it cost me about $98,000 for a one-bedroom unit in an over 55 village. And the rent you are getting was if you want a line with the increase in pension and pension at the time was going up by over CPI by 2 per cent of a CPI. So I said well you know the minimum the capital was is going to be 2 per cent above CPI. I said I have that kind of cash flow was great but there was you know I was hoping for capital growth there and then over time I just realized that there was no capital growth in this type of product because they're not mainstream. So I've sort of wasted my time there because that property ended up corporate and ended up going fairly high. Even though the cash flow was great I was completely turned off by that and had no capital growth. So I didn't sort of losing any money but I was just sort of wasting my time and it sort of taught me that you are much better off staying in a mainstream product in a mainstream location because you know your tenants are going to be mainstream people and your buyers are going to be mainstream owner-occupiers hopefully or investors and you want you ought to be where you've got the maximum chance of being able to sell your property when you want to and at the same time having capital growth.

So what happened to that property. Do you still own it in your portfolio or did you actually just let it go?

I ended up letting it go and it's the only property I've ever sold in my life and I’ve never sold any other properties, I have only been buying.

Through dealing with the consequences of irrational property investment choices Brach was able to take away some valuable lessons about the do’s and don’ts of building a successful portfolio.

The lesson I've learned from that one is don't try to force what the market is saying. For instance, banks don't like this type of security they don't like it; so they don't like retirement homes, they don't like student accommodation, they don't like serviced apartments before for all of these they don't like holiday units. So for these reasons, there's a reason why they don't like them. If you one day they have to repossess the goods they may have difficulties in selling them so they're making it difficult in lowering the loan to value rations or they’re not lending at all.  

So I know that's that was a good lesson for me there that I'm not trying to force the issue seeing the big forces to lend to me. At the end of the day, I have to play the statistics.

Having delved into the property investment scene, Brach shares his initial thought process behind the risks of what an investor can potentially gain and lose.

When I sort of came across that notion of negative gearing and I just did these numbers I sort of said: “that can’t be right”. I remember saying to myself once, this is money for jam because you know you're higher and you know your properties are cash flow positive you extract equity from the home to put a deposit down and investment properties you put in pretty much nothing in it. Property is cash flow positive and goes by say 5-7% per annum. It has to be a no brainer for most people. But that was that back in in the fall of 2002 and 2003.

Nowadays the equation is a bit different. But I suppose the aha moment if you want along these lines, is that when I talk to this accountant of mine and I said: “Where did I go wrong?”  Then my next thing was okay what happens if I acquire 10 properties and then I lose my job? And he looked at me and he is an Irish guy and deadpan he said well if you have your property and you lose your job you're stuffed but if you have 10 properties and you lose your job you’re stuffed too. And that was the thing. And there was a click in my mind that said Ah well you're absolutely right. Might as well go for it.

Using Numbers to Leverage the Best Deals in Australia's Property Market with Philippe Brach

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Oh yeah. And I've been you know I've been known to turn people away. You know people who come to me and said I've got three properties and I want to go for the fourth one then we make we calculate the numbers and you say okay we could technically get you into a false property but then you would use all your savings you would have no bus left and you really had the limit of your borrowing capacity. And when we get to this situation we said to people said listen really advise you not to do it unless you have got a massive salary and you can rebuild your savings very quickly. I wouldn't advise people to do that because people need it sometimes they don't understand their own limits and you just need to have a couple of interest rate increases and then these people are in trouble. And so you know I guess the last thing I want is to knowingly put someone in harm's way and when you're pushing people to the limit of the borrowing capacity and the limit of their buffers in savings and using everything to get into an extra property that's not right. And you know I wouldn't sleep at night either so I don't want that. I want people to be happy and I want people to come and complain to me using what have you done. 

And that's come some strong morale switchy. You definitely sound like you have there because everyone wants to sleep at night so it's good that you recommend those things to your clients. 

What I wanted to find out Philip is to ask you a little bit more now on the mindset side of things. Initially, when you first jumped into buying property you spoke to the downturn and you got good advice from them. Was there anything holding you back from that because you said you had plenty of savings your own really good income. You know there isn't anything that sort of stopped you. I mean yeah debating poppy or are you pretty go I go I'm really happy to jump straight into it. 

Yeah, I was far from that conversation with this Irish accountant about being stuffed with job. That was my only concern honestly because I looked at the numbers they made sense and you know I said okay what. And I run quite a lot of scenarios what if I lose my 10 and what if interest rates go up etc.. So I've got obviously my spreadsheets and stuff like that. So I could see where my worst-case scenario was and my best guess scenario was and then once you're comfortable with one of the members at the end he knew it was just a matter of going for it. And experience has proved that I wasn't far off in any of the projections I've made except for that retirement property where the cash flow was fine. It was just that there was no capital growth. But apart from that as I said My life is driven by numbers and the numbers make sense. Just go for it. 

Good and back then when you're investing to probably did you seek out any resources or mentors to help you buy property. 

I know you mentioned there a few agents who had like literally saying you look by my property and trying to help you but were there any at all. I guess investing in education that you did for yourself. 

Well, I was lucky enough when I started looking for properties on the golf course when I was on a shopping spree I came across an agent there who was specializing in selling investment properties it certainly knew what he was talking about. We got a good relationship because we were talking the same language which was the language of numbers. So I got quite friendly with him and he had me to understand and avoid some of the traps. And apart from that then there was just a matter of sort of learning from experience there. 

Yeah that's I think sometimes hands-on learning experience makes a huge difference especially when you've got someone who is offering an investment property and also providing the advice that you need as well. 


And yet here I am talking about books at sea. Let's talk a little bit more about the book that you've written as well if and how listeners can also find out more about what's inside as well maybe just give a brief overview. 

Okay. The book is essentially articulated around the four stages of investing and it's about you know in stage one is essentially the plane or the phase one is the planning phase where you have to sit down understand how it works and what you need to understand is how much money you need to get into a property how much money is going to cost you why you hold it and how do you make money again. 

I also understand your financial situation. How many. What's your boarding capacity which is pretty much how many properties can you buy. How much deposit or equity have you got at your disposal. Are you ready to use that for an investment property etc etc.. So the first phase is really planning to understand and get comfortable with the idea of investing in property. Then the second phase if you want is what I call the accumulation phase once you understand you've understood the concept and you're happy to go forward then you start accumulating properties into your portfolio until you reach your target and that can be very quick or you can be very long. For instance, if someone has got a ninety thousand dollars of savings they're renting but they've got a good salary then you know they can only buy one property for starters then it's a question of buying that property and then waiting. So at the beginning, it can be very slow because if to wait for their property to grow in the capital then extract that equity in that will get you into the second property then and you've got two properties growing in value and then goes quicker and quicker as time goes by. 

So sometimes people have to be patient when the when they invest in property if they already own their home obviously they can tap into the equity in their home and any substantial equity you can go a bit faster but so there is a certain amount of time you need to accumulate a certain number of properties and then you get into the third phase which is essentially the transition phase and the transition phase is probably the best one. You do nothing because during the accumulation phase every time you build up equity in the property you extract it to buy in the next one. So essentially you might have a property portfolio of five or six properties but you've got no equity because every time you get some you just extract it to buy the next one. At some point, you need to stop buying because you need time to build up equity in your portfolio. So when you start buying your debts if your own interest only for instance that stays constant your property portfolio grows in value and then and then this is what you need to monetize. Then when you take the equity you've got in which is pretty much the value of your portfolio invested that you've got and seen you know what is your target there so that at retirement you can make some decisions. But the transitions the transition phase can be fairly long depending on what the goals are. Yes and then the final phase which is the drawdown phase is hard to monetize all that equity you've built up in your portfolio. Obviously you can't touch that equity until you sell the property or you borrow against it. But when you get to retirement you've got these choices. So in the book, we call the three main choices one you sell the whole portfolio. Accept the fact you have to pay taxes. Obviously the banks back see what's left and who's going to put that into a bank account and hopefully, that will generate enough interest or cash or cash flow and that income stream that you want. 

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The opposite is if during the transition phase you've got excess cash you can always start reducing your debt so by the time you retire the equity in cash will actually be greater. In which case your portfolio will become cash flow positive as you've paid it down. And if this income stream is sufficient for your purpose on retirement you might not need to sell any properties. But that means also that the equity you've got in your portfolio you're going to use which is a bit sad. So the last way to do it is a hybrid between the two. And so that means you sell a few properties to clear the debt on others and generate an income stream from the rent of the property to actually suit your need. And as time goes by as you grow older you get rid of property at time just so that you can cash in that equity on the part of the portfolio that's left. And then you can go on massive Holliday's and stuff like that if you need to. 

And I like that part. The hybrid part because ultimately you're still keeping an asset that's growing even at her past retirement age whereas and also you're paying down the debt so that way you don't have to positive cash flow to be able to use for whatever purposes you want for your lifestyle. 

Yeah that's right it's a bit of a juggling act and you can't really Planetes at the beginning because you don't know what your circumstances are at the point of retirement so you're just firm about you know you know what the options are and you just firm up on that plane when you have to make these decisions. 

Excellent and the name of the book as well as what was meant in the title for the listeners. 

Oh, it's Create Property Wealth in Any Market. 

Excellent and that's available in most bookstores as well. 

It is only two so we've got the special on our website. You can actually get it for that for 19.95 On our website. And there's no postage. 

Great, we'll make sure to put that in the show notes as well. And Philip could you share with me any other potential here other books you may have read as well. So always asking you know to guess what books would you recommend. They'd be mindset property or investing or any other books you could recommend as well. 

Not so many books but I like to read the magazines that are out there. And unfortunately in Australia, we only got one magazine in print. And that would be a big fan of printing magazine printed magazines because you can pick them up read them at the weekend etc. it's your investing property magazine if to obviously take all this stuff that's in there as not with a pinch of salt because you know sometimes you get some of this ridiculous stuff that is being said but you know by and large they're really good for education and other magazines like money magazine they're quite good. They call them more than just property down they're quite good magazines. 

Excellent. Yeah. 

I think magazines are really powerful and it's a shame that yeah a lot of the magazines have gone out print except for these two that still remain a thing because that technology has all been moved online to iPad and iPhone and that's wirings becoming electronic. Sad to say but you know I still like the feel and look of a printed magazine as well just like you do. Ah, we've talked quite a lot about different things. Did you. I might ask the question Do you have what's been the best advice you've ever received. 

In terms of investing in property in a word is to know your numbers. It frightens me sometimes when most of the people we see they very few are really conversant in numbers and it might be something a bit strange but when they get someone who comes in then it is an accountant you know they put on their questionnaire that the accountants for this and this company said Oh great we're talking the same language really find understanding numbers like there's no tomorrow. And in fact, I realise that they don't really. Maybe I'm having some funny clients but I find that they are not that switched on in terms of numbers which is interesting. Yeah. So yeah it's an interesting thing but certainly, to me it's crazy I hated when a client says listen I'm not sure I understand all these numbers but you know I trust you and you do the right thing and I said No I don't trust me. You have to do your own work and make sure that you're happy with what you're doing because it's your decision, not mine. And it's you can't make a decision you don't know what you're talking about.

That's right and that means they're not taking responsibility because if anything goes wrong they probably end up blaming someone else. 

Yeah but there are more and I know there's a blame game going on sometimes with a more I'm more interested in making sure people make a decision knowing the full facts of what their choices are and what the risks are etc. etc.. For instance every time I talk about a given property to a client I show them what the 10-year projection looks like at today's interest rates but also show them what the projection would be like if interest rates go up to 7 or 8 per cent. So they're fully aware of where their cash flow is going to be. If things go wrong and that's what a lot of other people don't do is present the full picture. 


And I'm more in because of my background in corporate finance. The way I do my business is by explaining the fact to people and then let them make up their mind. I try to avoid the hype and all the things seeing through sign saying here quickly otherwise the property is gone. Because that's to me that's not the way to do things. 

And I agree. I think that's a really powerful way to ensure that there's longevity because that's what clients want and that's how you build the trust as well. So don't just be pushing anything particularly good. Do you have a personal habit that you do on a daily basis that's been Contrave into what's your investment success? 

It's not a daily habit it's more a monthly habit which is to say I've got a massive spreadsheet with all my properties and all the key numbers in there and they measure a measure of Ruffini every month and look how much debt doesn't manage to pay down. Look at how the properties are performing et cetera et cetera. And the reason I'm doing that then have done that from day one is that if you Magin go back in time when I bought my first seven properties and because you just bought the property there was no equity in there so you've got all of them out of debt. Of course, you've got the assets on the other side. You know you that is worst-case scenario or you know something happens you could sell the whole lot and get most of your money back but you'd still be worried. And you have to wait for two to four years to see that you know the equity is actually substantially increasing and they're using it to buy another property then you can see through your equity growing and then that helps you sleep at night knowing that you're on the right track. Yeah. And if you take equity out to the next property that's also a very good sign because it means you know you're executing your plan. So it's just keeping tabs of the numbers and making sure you overall you're not feeling that you're losing money and that's and that you are on target to achieve your numbers so that by the time you retire you'll be fine. And that is important because it's counter barely to make sure that you are looking at the numbers. Otherwise easy just to put in the bottom drawer and forget that the problem is naturally costing you or you know generating some form of income. So it's really important. 

Excellent. Well, I think you've covered most things in terms of the book and all those things. I wonder if you have anything else you want to share about the nuts and bolts of your strategy because you've obviously purchased a lot of properties in the past and are you still acquiring more properties to your portfolio at this point in time. 

Yes against my wife's best judgment in the sense that I see that because a few days back we said Listen, darling, we need to get into the transition phase I have to stop buying properties and pretty much we've reduced the number of properties you buy but I've just bought another one and I couldn't resist. You know sometimes you see these things and the last thing I want is to advise people to buy in areas where I haven't invested. So it's also a sort of sign that I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I mean the latest when we've done that was 18 months ago was in in the Newcastle area in there and we went in there and got pretty much about 30 or found clients buying in there as well. There was around 5 25 30 thousand dollar mark for these properties and now they're selling for about six-thirty. So we're really happy they come back they say oh we've got equity can we use that for the next one that's a try and that's how we see progress. The thing is to get people to put them in good properties so they come back for more and everybody happy. 

Yeah, that's really good. 

Mark and the strategy behind your why for investing at this point in time what's been the biggest way for you to build up your portfolio. 

Why am I still investing? I'm just I don't know. It's like a beautiful burg if you want. And you know you see opportunities and you say oh my god that would be great for my clients and then sometimes you say I'll have one for myself. So we bought one back in January this year which is a piece of land that's not registered and we will register next month. So we've got the funds did and all that. But yeah it's one of these things there's no rhyme or reason here is I don't need to buy more is just that sometimes I feel that urge to do it. 

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It becomes addictive I want to start it doesn't it. But a good reason. 

Yeah yeah. No, it's true and I really love it. So I'm at the stage where I'm saying okay now maybe we should start selling some but I don't want to start selling them while I'm still having an active income because I'm just increasing the amount of taxes I'm paying and I don't really need financially to sell and so I feel it's a question of waiting until I retired and then slowly get rid of that machine. 

Yeah. And what has been your main acquiring strategy like. Well, when I say strategy you obviously said that land tax was one component but you looked at the reason why you went up to Queensland. What has been the rest of your strategy to better buy properties? 

Have you been I guess some specific about the type of properties you buy or have you been just going where the market is this time. 

The type of property until recently the type of property wasn't that important to me. Profaning it was in a good location and it had a proven track record of capital growth. But recently the two things that happened is that no one got involved in ASIC got involved into sorting out the banks which as a result especially for apartments banks are becoming a lot more cagey in lending to apartments and high rise buildings etc etc.. Some banks are actually closing postcodes so they've got me a bit wary about apartments over and above the fact that there's a certain supply in Melbourne and in Brisbane. But you know selling a property off of the plan to someone and say you know we really worry about the financing this time and not being confident you could get the finance simply because the banks might just decide to turn off their party till postcode or because they like the fact it's highrise et cetera et cetera and that sort of doesn't appeal to me because there's a great degree of risk that in today's market I think is not acceptable. The other thing that happened is on the 9th of May 2017 budget night Scott Morrison announced that for any second-hand property you can't claim depreciation on plants and equipment anymore. So and if you just to give you an idea that if you're buying a one year or property from someone so only your depreciation is gone down by 50 per cent. 

So do the strategy if you want to grow a portfolio that has got capital growth is what's going to make you rich. But in the meantime, if you hold a portfolio of properties you want to make sure your cash flows are going to kill you too. And the biggest ingredient in terms of making your cash flow reasonably is depreciation because it's a non-cash item that actually allows you to actually claim really cash tax dollars back from DHL. So it's quite an important one. And if you can just take a big example you buy half a million-dollar property in a brand new one and you've got an eleven thousand dollars worth of depreciation every year your cash flow or maybe about 20 dollars cash flow positive if you Boral or say 80 per cent. But if you buy this property let's assume the same property is a very very old one Soledad naughty procession your cash flow becomes minus three thousand dollars a year. Right. As opposed to plus 1000. If it's a brand new one and if you buy a second-hand property that saves one year all the trees years or four years all your cash is between these two numbers so you might be about 2000 dollars cash for negative. So if you've got five properties and it will cost you two thousand dollars it's going to become a problem. So to me, the events of the last few years have dictated what makes more sense or what you want is a brand new property. You try to avoid apartments so that means you've pretty much restricted to houses and insurance together. You either get a brand new house that had no owners before and or a house and then package, for instance, would work. 

The good thing about Haselton packages that you got reduced stamp duty because you only pay stamp duty on the land. So there's good reason to think that out and then packages these days are probably the way to go for. For a savvy investor who is conscious of his numbers. 

That's a very interesting point you raise there. I didn't realize the impact it really did have. Now that you've mentioned it sets a pretty smart strategy and hits a lot less maintenance as well if you can't buy brand new land and house packages because you will ultimately attract a better tenant anyway because most people will like you places to live in. So currently what how many properties would you say you've got your portfolio and how much would you say it's worth. 

14 now of properties worth about 10 million and it's about three and a half million dollars worth of debt on this portfolio. 

Wow. That's not much. Yeah but they've been at it for some time. And you know as I said dove into the transition phase although sometimes an end up another property. So yeah that's what's happened to me. So it's a good place to be. But of course, it's not the time for retirement yet. 

Yep yep. That's good to know there's the stability in the back. So if you do retire down the track then you know that you can fall back on. Yeah. So that's great. And if you make yourself say 10 years ago what would you say to him. 

He the same thing I said earlier on really really understand your numbers before you make any decisions and follow the mainstream advice as far as you know. The classic advice like you don't want to buy in the middle of nowhere. You want to buy commutable distance from a major centre to make sure that you know your you're taking care of your risk management. It's essentially. 

Excellent advice to yourself that's great. What are you most excited about in your property journey in the next five years. 

In the next five years. I'm looking at as I said I'm sort of in my transition phase now so that sometimes air but I want to I'm looking really forward to seeing how that capital growth keeps developing and sort of concentrating on preparing myself for retirement. I've got still quite a few years ahead of me but I think it's good to think about it. When people come to me the other day I had the kind of potential client called me says I'm 52. I earn 80000 dollars a year I'm renting and I've got some 2000 intervenes and I've got 150000 superannuation. Am I going to retire? I said well you've left it too late. People start worrying about retirement. We're now in the early 50s and that's not good. You have to think about it a lot earlier than that. 

That's so important. I guess it's good for the younger generation to understand that. So, unfortunately, there are people in that situation that have left it to them. But it's a good learning lesson for the younger generation not leaving it too late. So that's a very good point. 

All right well thank you so much for coming on to this podcast well end by letting listeners know what's the best way they can connect with you and also find out more about your book as well. 

The best way is to jump on our website which is www dot multi focus M U L T I F O C U S dot com dot AU. The book is on there and contact details on there so don't hesitate to contact the number there and ask for me. 

Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Phillip, for coming onto this podcast and sharing your story. It's been an inspiration and I'm sure the listeners would love to hear more about you and your story as well. 

Thank you, Tyrone. 

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