Investment property strategist at Smarter Property Investing, Christine Williams, will share her rentvest story, how she became a rentvestor before the term was introduced and how she learnt the hard way about residential and commercial interest rates, so that you don’t have to!
Learn how to manage your day through communication and teamwork, a big part of what makes Williams’ day so successful, as well as uncover how she turned her love of numbers into a property strategy she now swears by as she chases the Great Australian Dream of owning her own home.
Investment property strategist at ‘Smarter Property Investing’, Christine Williams says the key to managing her day is communication and teamwork, which is a big part of what makes her day so successful.
Well, as you can hear I love to talk, and more than often my three things that I do is my To Do List to make sure that I’m covering up and what I need to achieve for my clients. I have the task of making sure that I speak to at least five clients a day, not e-mail, actually speak to them. And of course then I spend quite a bit of my time on research, what’s coming up, looking at what the media is saying, thinking that my clients are only concerned about what the media is saying so I make sure that I’ve got a meeting for that. And if anything other than that it’s working with my team.
I’ve got four, five girls, contractors and full time employees as well. And then of course from that I work with then fillery services, mortgage brokers, solicitors, accountants, financial planners with my actual team and myself and five girls.
Yeah. It’s important to be able to build a portfolio or help others build a portfolio you need a team of people, the right people surrounding you to to help achieve that, because it’s not a one man business or one man thing anymore nowadays with property, it’s a team effort.
No it’s not and from a business perspective that’s exactly right. However from an investment property perspective, it’s extremely important to have those professionals around you as well.
In 2016, Williams’ company were nominated for the Finder Innovation Awards under the category of Most Innovative Team/ Person. She has used her strategies for personal success within her own business and is known to specialise in property portfolios.
She says that being a mother and grandmother has enabled this trait, as she’s learnt to have a backup plan in any scenario.
I’m actually credited with PR away as a property advisor in that it’s talking about strategies and what strategy would actually suit you. So I would say that I’m a strategist from just being female because you know as a wife, a mother and a grandmother you have to work things out and you have strategies, always, always in place you know, if strategy A doesn’t work out, what have we got lined up to be in too? So that’s how I would see myself. But really I just said that I’m a wife, a mother and a grandmother. I often tell my audiences when I’m speaking, what they see is what you get. So I’m pretty normal and if I can do it, I think most people can do what I do.
As a young girl Williams’ family moved around a great deal. In her adult life, this became a reason for her to begin purchasing property and to settle down.
I’m a Melbourne girl. Born and bred in Melbourne. I grew up in Broadmeadows but in saying that I went to seven different primary schools, left school at 15, but went to four different secondary schools. So from that you can tell my parents moved around a lot and I had a very, very gypsy life growing up and a part of that moving was rental properties and a lot of my childhood was spent in caravans as well.
I had a very loving childhood. However, it wasn’t until I became an adult and understood that I didn’t want to continue moving around and I wanted a home. So yes, the great Australian dream of actually owning a home. What was one of the things that even though my parents couldn’t provide that it was something that they influenced me in, in my upbringing and they made me understand that you could live anywhere and a house could be made into a home. But I actually got hooked on the Great Australian Dream of owning some water, so inadvertently because of my upbringing, that’s how I got involved in property because it was something I didn’t have, something that I’ve worked towards having and I still want to work towards that today. I’m still building my property portfolio today. And it just makes me think that, yes my children won’t have the childhood that I had and it’s my biggest reason why. So that’s where that came from.
Stemming from her love of numbers, Williams’ had a variety of administration and managerial jobs before beginning her property investment journey. Each of these jobs paved the way for her to become a property investment strategist.
It’s funny, having to leave school at 15 because I had to help my parents out financially. I’m the eldest of three children. It’s really funny understanding or thinking about how I got into property. It wasn’t something I woke up one day saying this is what I’m going to do. It certainly has evolved over many years. It actually came from me loving numbers. I’ve always been a numbers girl. It’s just numbers come into my mind and I can work out something very quickly through numbers.
So, the job that I had when I left school I was quite lucky to start at an office when I was 16 and four months and I was the mail girl at ‘Jake Eddystone’. And from that, my expertise in numbers just sort of cemented administration jobs in accounts receivables, accounts payable wages, payroll, anything that had to do with numbers, I just seemed to excel at it. And through that, through my career, I became manager in charge of staff and so forth.
But once I got married an understanding that I knew that I needed to earn more money to get further ahead in life, I actually went back to night school and I did my accounting diploma. So I suppose for me an accounting diploma and being in managerial position and actually workflow and having to strategize for businesses that I worked in. I worked in hospitality, the building industry, the automotive industry, all industries that evolved around keeping an eye on numbers. It really helped me become the strategist that I am today because I was strategizing in the career path that I took in every single job.
Williams says that it was only natural for her to enter into the property investing industry due to following what she was passionate about. She says that when investing in properties, you have actually become a business owner.
Technically, I’ve been self-employed for about the last 20 years and I think not wanting to be my own boss so that it didn’t sort of come from there, it came from the necessity of having money and earning money and money became a part of what you needed to become a very successful property investor. So I suppose becoming a business owner, once again, taught me how to strategize in business and becoming quite successful in businesses. I’ve been involved in three different businesses so with that, property investing or smarter property investing my business today. really came from 20 odd years. Being in business and understanding that becoming a property investor, which is this is something that I teach my clients all the time, you’ve actually become a business owner. You’ve actually started a business and the business is property investing. So it really was just a natural path for me to create a business from a passion that I had.
WIlliams tells us how her first investment property came about and how she was intent on chasing the Great Australian Dream of owning her own home. Then she realised that to create wealth, it was necessary to own a collection of properties rather than just one or two.
The first investment property actually came after my divorce so if I go back to my first marriage, I have a current husband, a second marriage; if I go back to my first marriage, yes, we built a house, we bought a block of land and we bought a house and we eventually decided that they house wasn’t big enough. So we sold it and we sold it in the boom and then we built a bigger house and then we did exactly the same thing again and sold it in boom and made money along the way.
But we were only buying and selling, sorry, selling and buying, to get a bigger house because it was a Great Australian Dream. So I never really understood anything other than buying and selling houses at that particular time and making money out of it to get a bigger house. But I suppose the property investing started after I got divorced and unfortunately after paying out private school fees and debt. I came out with fifteen thousand dollars and two teenage children and where was I going to park that $15,000? Because I started renting and apart from the fact it was the first time after I’d been married that I was renting it with. How can I invest my money to get into a house? Because once again it was about the Great Australian Dream of having your own home because I loved it and how do I do that?
So I started looking at differing investments, property wasn’t the first thing that I invested in. I actually invested in the business first and from that, it was very successful in the first couple of years and then it was a block of land and the block of land through a boom. I doubled my money in less than 18 months, I took that money and I actually invested it then into some water. So it really came out of desperation. Investing in property came out of desperation from a divorce and then being successful in the choices that I made. Because to me, investing in property is not about investing in property. To me investing in property is my why and my outcome and it’s about making money. So it was how can I make money quickly instead of, you know, just having to work more hours or find a job that’s going to pay me more.
The penny dropped when I realised property made money and that was what I was after. From that, I eventually realised that you know it’s not one property, it’s not two properties, it’s actually multiple properties and that’s how it turned into a business.
Williams had learned from her mistakes and wanted the opportunity to inform others of the information she had gleaned. After working for a number of years as a mortgage broker, she realized that she had a way of helping people – and so, lead her to become a property investment strategist.
Along the way, one of the lessons I learnt was how to get more money and that was working with banks and I made a mistake once of, well I understood that I didn’t want the bank to own my house, so I I understood that if I had a separate property, that being an investment property and that would be security, the bank wouldn’t use my own home as security.
So what I’m leading to you there, is that I end up paying cash through equity in my own property. I’m not paying cash for commercial property and that commercial property was then going to be the basis of my security for future investment properties. I didn’t realise at that time that by buying a commercial property, any future investment residential properties that I securitise against that property, I would have to be paying commercial interest rates. So therefore my cash flow went down and my expenses went up and it was a very, very big lesson that I learnt that securing property against commercial property, you acquire commercial interest rates, not residential interest rates. So with that I thought to myself, no I’m not going to fall for that trap again and these are how I learnt lessons during my life when I did fall into a trap or I didn’t have enough information and I made the wrong decision I went out and learned how to do this better.
So at that point I became a mortgage broker and at that point, I started to learn the system and the system was, how to get money from the banks to work within your own property investment strategy and how to get the best product and not fall into the same trap that I did. So I’ve become successful because of the mistakes I’ve made and then by making mistakes I’ve decided to go and learn how to do it better. So all through my career and through my journey of being a property investor, the mistakes I made I went and learned how to do it better. So, how I start telling people about investing in property, just by this time on investing property myself and as a mortgage broker, I was always asked what to do and how to do it.
And it was more about helping my more mortgage brokering clients set up the correct product so that they could continue to borrow money under bank guidelines and to know what their why was and to know what they intended to do and how to help them on that path to get there. And it was after the mortgage brokering that I started the property business because I just realized after three or four years that I was helping a lot of people inadvertently and it just becomes a natural progression.
Williams speaks about the lowest of the low in her investing experiences, saying that the commercial interest rate prevented her from acquiring a good cash flow and borrowing money.
I suppose it came from that commercial property as much as it turned out quite successful in the end, of course we’re made quite a bit of money out of it. It was the worst decision I made because I had already planned to purchase three properties over the future three years after that property and because the commercial interest rate changed my cash flow, it actually prevented me from borrowing money or having that right cash flow for at least two years. So I see that’s a worse decision because it kept me out of the market for two years, whilst I had to refinance, re-strategise and get back into it. So as much as it turned out to be a successful investment, it was the worst decision I made.
Commercial property isn’t a bad investment it is a good investment; if you’ve got the right strategy in place. So yes I have clients that work with commercial.
The term “rentvestor” has become popular among those from generation Y, who are finding it too challenging to enter into the market. Williams says that while the term is relatively new, she herself lived by the principle 20 years ago.
If people are prepared to go and look up the old fashioned Macquarie Australian English dictionary, you’ll find that there’s a word in there now that was actually put in the English Dictionary just over two years ago. It’s called “rentvestor” So a rentvester to me is someone who is renting where they want to work and live, but they can’t afford to buy their own home in the area that they want to live, but they start being quite wise in investing in other areas and creating and building wealth outside where they’re living.
Now I didn’t know, I suppose my a-ha moment was 20 years ago – I was a rent vester. I was renting because I wanted to keep my girls in the schools, the area that they’d grown up in, and to keep them with their friends and after a divorce I couldn’t rebuy in the same area.
So I started renting in the area to keep my girls in the same school and keep them with their friends and I started investing where I could afford to invest. So over 20 years ago, I became a rent vestor.
I didn’t know until two years ago that it was an actual person or an actual title or an actual strategy. But now I have Generation Y coming up now that are successfully becoming rent vestors. So I suppose the a-ha moment was whilst I was paying rent as an adult with two children, I understood I was helping someone pay off their own mortgage and this is how I could get into property. So the a-ha moment came out of desperation and came out of making the right choice of where to park my money when I first started parking money.
And then with regards to people investing or rent vesting, right now it’s probably the trend that’s going on because unfortunately the properties around say Sydney and Melbourne are averaging between 700 to a million dollars, so it kind of stretches people’s budgets to afford to buy things and live in and you basically would be living on a very tight budget if you’re to afford to buy these properties outright.
I suppose we were fortunate enough to live in a time whereby, not that credit is free, but we have credit, we have access to strategies and we have access to different ideas.
When I was growing up, there was no such thing as an rentvestor and there was no such thing as, you know, do anything other than, you know, get married, buy your own home, pay it off and live on the pension. Well of course, we know today that, that’s not going to be sustainable and however, but we also know that there are many people coming through population, either you know, being born here or through migration. We know that every single person needs to lay their heads somewhere every night.
And so to me, property investors are doing our population a service by offering investment properties and having that option whereby you become the landlord. And I’m very adamant about being a very good landlord, you become a landlord to allow people to rent where they want to live and you know, put them on the path of understanding that they can sound investing in outer suburbs. Because you are right, Melbourne and Sydney, you know, we are going to become populations of eight and 10 million and we have the land and we’re just going to continue to buy, build property. So investors are actually helping our population have some way to make their head of a night time and I think it’s a very good strategy to get into. To understand it, yes it is about creating wealth, however, you are doing a person, a family, divorced parents, migrants a favour by offering them a well maintained home that they can afford to rent. Meanwhile you’re making money and creating wealth whilst your doing it.
Williams states she is most excited about being able to access more information about property investing, which is allowing many people who believe that they cannot afford to invest, to do so.
Access to information, however, too much information can be not good for you. But I think we have it by educating yourself and understanding the systems and the systems through the bank’s systems through property law, the systems through taxation I think it’s, it was never a secret, property made money, but it was always a secret as to how you could do it and so I’m just so excited today that we have so much access to information and we have guidelines and accreditation and qualifications put in place that, you know, if you are going to speak about a subject, you are an authority on the subject. You have to go out and prove that you’ve actually done it. So I’m excited about the process in my business that I’ve started.
Look it wasn’t easy being a female. Property was generally very much, if I do say, a boys club and I’m really excited about how many women and single women, but women in general who really embrace the fact that they can go out invest in property as well. So that’s why I’m excited about it and I’m so excited to see so many young people coming through and understanding that there’s benefit in owning property and then young couples getting into the market and you know, my kids, my own adult children, you know having investment properties and knowing that they’re taking the right steps and precautions, that’s going to work for them and you know, understanding it is a risk, but putting risk mitigation strategies in place so that it’s it’s going to work for them. So yeah, I’m very excited about how property can change people’s lives today.
It’s human nature to have doubts about our own abilities. For Williams, it was particularly difficult to get past these doubts and to be confident in her understanding of property investing.
Unfortunately for me it was being a female and worrying about what I could and what I couldn’t do – having the belief in myself to trust my gut feeling. Then of course from that, money and how do I get the money to actually start investing my time with it? This is the path that I wanted to go down.
When locating resources and educating herself on property investing, she had no particular mentors. However, engaging with seminars and focusing on why she wanted to become a property investor was where it all began.
Looking for educational seminars, trying to see the wood for the trees – what was actually real, what was actually a scare tactic? What was actually thinking about the individual person? So it really was just a journey.
But I suppose the reason sort of became my resource, in making sure that my kids were going to be well off and making sure that I could provide for my kids. So my why was the thing that made me want to be educated and look for the resources to find out how to invest in property correctly, wisely and safely. Over the decades, you’ve heard many horror stories, the Gold Coast for example – what could be done on the Gold Coast? It went from boom to bust. So I suppose it was more about making sure that when I’d made a decision, I was making the right decisions and I always based that on numbers and cash flow.
Sometimes when there is a lot of information at play, it can be challenging to take in. The best advice Williams has ever received is to come back and listen again.
Listening to a couple of seminars, it was really funny – you do only hear normally 7% of whatever anyone ever tells you. So it pays to go back, time and time again and I actually have clients that come and see me speak two or three times and they’re just amazed at what they pick up every time they come: ‘You’ve said something different tonight, Christine, I’ve learned something different.’ The actual fact is I haven’t really said anything different, it’s just that’s what they were actually able to take in at that particular time.
So I suppose the best advice I’ve ever received was come back and listen to this again – before you make a decision, make sure that you’ve heard everything that you need to hear. And did it resonate with your gut? I call that the sleep test; so if strategies have been suggested to you and it fits well with you there and then. But if you don’t sleep for the next three nights, it’s not really sitting well with you, there’s something wrong – your gut’s actually telling you that there’s something wrong. As humans, we do have a sixth sense we just don’t know how to use it. So to me the advice that I heard was, is this right for you. And if you’re sleeping well and it fits well with your gut after three or four days, go ahead and do it.
That is great. It stops you from taking those really immediate actions, because sometimes if you take those it can actually lead to a lot of distress.
It can. And the whole going to different seminars and you’re asked to sign on the dotted lines because tonight’s the only night – no. If you’re interested, they will know that you’re interested and you can take time to think about it. There is none of this, sign on the dotted line – I think the cooling off period of three days is well worth it.
As a female, you know, you impulse buy. After you bought that dress and shoes and get at home, you think, ‘What on earth did I buy that for?’ So yes, it’s really no different and property is no different to that. If you know you are a compulsive spender, you get it home and you know that you shouldn’t have done it. Well there’s no difference in property, it’s just a different level.
Williams’ strategy is central to keeping herself and her clients insured in the event of an unforeseen situation. This came about by ensuring that she never made the same mistake twice.
It came from mistakes and learning from those mistakes. And through every mistake I made they ended up being some sort of success. I call it a success because I learned something and from those mistakes it made me mitigate risk more and more each time I invested. I believe at this point, I’ve mitigated just about every risk or any scenario that could come. I believe that I put something in place that would not affect investment property.
So what I did understand was to keep me moving forward – because of course, things went wrong and of course you knew weeks when you were worrying about the mortgage being paid, the tenant wasn’t there and not knowing what’s going to happen. So of course there were those type of weeks and sometimes they turned into months. Once it happened, I never let that happen to me again because it was always about, ‘I’m never going to let that happen again.’ It was always about my ‘why,’ for the kids.
So when working with my clients, unless they have a solid ‘why,’ I generally don’t want to work with them because it’s the ‘why’ that keeps you on track when something goes wrong. But what I do believe in is having things go wrong along my journey and then finding a way to make sure that they don’t go wrong again, is what helped me build my strategy.
I suppose this strategy in the Smarter Strategy or the Smarter 7 Steps that I’m teaching my clients all the time, you have to have your ‘why’ for when things go wrong or when things don’t go as good as what you expect. Because I’m always telling them that this we get rich quick scheme is actually slow and steady. Make sure that we have enough cash buffer in place, make sure that we cover the sleep chest, make sure that we’ve got all our insurances in place, make sure that all the bank lines are correctly in place. So it’s a part of the strategy of making sure that when something goes wrong, it’s really going to be a bump. It’s not going to turn into a mountain.
On the subject of her strategy, Seven Smarter Steps, Williams has provided a framework through Smarter Property Investing which everyone can follow to achieve their goals.
Specific – be very specific about ‘why’ you’re getting into it.
Measure it – how many properties are you actually looking at and are the outcome of these properties going to give you what your ‘why’ is all about.
Attainable – can we get the finance? What do we need to do to do it? What strategies should we be looking at?
Is it realistic – I get back to if your ‘why’ is realistic and is your outcome realistic? Because I have people coming to me at 55 that want ten properties in the next five years and I will say, ‘That’s just not realistic and why do you want them anyway?’ Or I’ve got a 25 year old saying to me, ‘I only want three properties. Do you think I can do it?’ Yes you can, because you’ve got 30 or 40 years in the workforce.
Time – what is your timeframe? Is it 5, 10, 20 years and what is the timeframe? And it sort of goes back to the previous three
Evaluate – every 12 months you should be looking at what you’ve done, if there are better ways. Should we be looking at interest rates? Should be looking at the insurances? How is the property going? Have we gained equity? Can we use equity out of the property?
Repeat – do it again. Once you’ve done it and once you can see that this is working, do it again and it’s not the McDonald’s, ‘Would you like fries with this?’ It’s actually the McDonald’s philosophy of, ‘It’s a system. Work the system, once you’ve chosen your strategy don’t vary from that system because that’s what is going to work for you.’
For Williams, the importance of having the right team surrounding her is paramount to her investing success. She says it’s also become essential for her to have a strong understanding of how your cash flow is going to affect your lifestyle.
So a personal habit is making sure that you have the right advisers around you and a personal habit is having that team that you can bounce ideas and questions off. Having your accountant, your financial planner, your conveyance solicitor, a mortgage broker, or bank manager for that matter. So a personal habit of mine is I’ve created a team around me that I know if I’m about to make a decision, I can springboard it off them to make sure that I’ve asked all the right questions, I’ve considered all the yeses and nos, why do or don’t. So that’s a personal choice of mine and I really instill that in my clients as well, making sure that they have the right team around them.
But the other most important thing is knowing your numbers and knowing your cash flow and how that’s going to affect your current lifestyle. If you don’t know your numbers and you don’t know what you’re investing in property or how it’s going to affect you or your cash flow and your current lifestyle, that’s probably where you need to start. Because if you have to stop going out for coffee, or if you have to stop going on holiday, or if you’ve got to stop not being able to impulse buy that pair of heels or that dress or go and play golf or go to the footy with your mate, investing in property is not for you. Or you’ve invested in the wrong type of price point – because it shouldn’t affect your cash flow, it shouldn’t affect your lifestyle to the point that you have to give up the things that you love. It has to be done in tandem. So I suppose that’s probably one of the main parts of my strategy and how I become a successful investor.
The idea of placing all of one’s earnings into their investments is ultimately not one that Williams lives by.
It will work for some people, but it won’t work with the majority. The reason why I say that is because we live a lifestyle whereby going down to the local cafe and sitting and chatting with friends might take $20, $30, $50, $100 for that afternoon. Some people say, ‘Well you should put that $100 into property, because it’s for your future.’ Well, I have taught my kids that they have to have fun along the way. It might be we don’t spend $100, but budget $20, $30 or $50 to have fun along the way and invest that other $50.
Look it’s all about moderation and it’s about knowing that you don’t have to go without to build a property portfolio for your future. Yes, you have to assess your expenses. Yes, you have to assess where the money is going – and when you really assess where the money is going you will pull back, because you know the greater good or your ‘why’ is actually to invest. But if you have to pull back so much so that you can’t enjoy that cup of coffee, or go shopping, or have that little holiday, or go to the footy with mates – you keep on saying, ‘No, no, no, I can’t afford it.’ The minute something does go wrong with that investment property – because something will go wrong – and it will be a little bump, you’ll get so agitated and so frustrated with your lifestyle that you end up selling, which negates everything that you put in place to work towards your future and creation of wealth.
So I’m very much of the opinion you can have both – you can have your cake and eat it too and grow a property portfolio. It’s just where you choose to park your money and what you choose to go without and you’ve got to be comfortable going without that pleasure, that little lifestyle decision. And the other thing is true, when you are investing in property and you do get to a particular goal – and it could be your deposit, or it could be your contract and condition, or it could be the property settled – you should reward yourself! Because that’s a major step in your wealth creation journey and eventually it just becomes the norm, because you keep on repeating it, but you should keep on rewarding yourself every step of the way. And that could be coffee with friends. It could be going out for dinner. But do remember to reward yourself because you’ve got to do with lifestyle. Remember you’re doing this for lifestyle.
When considering books she would recommend to listeners, she names several inspiring authors in addition to her own book.
I’m writing my own book at the moment, it’s going to be called Suddenly Single. It’s basically going to be having my Seven Steps along the way and hopefully that will be published in the next 12 weeks. So a bit from that, it’s really going to be about lessons I’ve learned and becoming suddenly single and doing it.
But one of the lessons I’ve learnt along the way and one of the books I’ve read is Rich Dad Poor Dad. It’s just a life lesson about enjoying life, knowing what you want and actually putting away 10$. So it’s a very, very simple lesson and I’ve got to tell you, I’m a very simple girl – I like picking a strategy, keep it simple, stupid. So there you go, it can be. And Chicken Soup – enjoy and be grateful that you’re here today, be grateful that you’ve got the opportunity to actually do this. So Chicken Soup, because I’m not a great reader, I don’t have to delve too deep into it – I just think it’s about learning lessons and picking up some really good quotes from Albert Einstein, just thinking about great people that have been in our life – Mandela, Mother Teresa, all these people have very much the same lesson as Rich Dad Poor Dad. Enjoy life along the way and put 10% aside.
If you would like to connect with Williams and find out from her how to make your property investments work right for you, she has a special offer exclusive to Property Investory listeners.
So what happens from where I present what I call my ‘dining table session’ or my ‘destination freedom session,’ I present to Bendigo banks and I also present individually around Melbourne. After I present, my audience is offered to book a discovery session. A discovery session goes for 90 minutes and in that we actually work out whether or not investing in property is right for that individual – because sometimes it’s not and that’s OK. And I really cover your numbers and uncover your ‘why’, that’s what it’s all about. So the session itself is about the individual, it’s not about me. You know, people can Google me and find out what I’ve done and all that sort of stuff and I’m happy to share more of my story in that session. But basically it’s about the person and whether or not they can do this, if they can’t do it today, what do they need to do in the next 12 months to actually do it in the future, whether or not they’re ready, what their risk tolerances are and really what their cash flow and their lifestyle is about. And what they want to achieve. Normally I charge $97 for that and I always say that if you don’t feel that you’ve receive $97 worth of value, I’ll refund that.
I’m happy for people to go to my website, book a discovery session and if they put in the comment ‘Property investing Tyrone’, I’ll waive that fee regardless and I’m happy to spend 90 minutes with them, that can either be face to face or via Skype. So just go to the website www.smarterpropertyinvesting.com.au book a session and one of my team members will come back with a date and time that suits us both. They’ll be working individually with me in that discovery session and we can see whether or not we’re happy working with each other and whether or not investing in property is actually right for them.